As mentioned in yesterday’s essay, I want to devote today’s post to another influential individual in my Disney history career: Lucille Ryman Carroll. I did not know Lucille while Herbie was alive, but rather met her in 1991 when she invited Ken to a lunch at her home, and Ken asked if he could bring his “son.” Ken informed me that “Lunch With Lucille” would be a very proper and genteel occasion…and boy, was it! It was a very elegant lunch in an equally graceful dining room, complete with Louis the Fourteenth looking furniture, a crystal chandelier, a servant for our food, velvet napkins, and what appeared to be Bavarian China. And our feast? Tuna fish sandwiches and salad! That was Lucille, very cultured and refined, yet very down to earth and sincere. I have to say, it was the best tuna fish sandwich I have ever had, but what I truly remember was Lucille and Ken reminiscing about Herbie. Yes, I took notes. Lots of notes!

When Lucille learned I lived in Salt Lake City, she asked me if I could go look at a Circus painting by her brother that she was trying to acquire, as it also resided in Utah. The pictures she had been sent made it appear as if there was damage on the art. I agreed to take a look at it in person for her. She agreed to an interview about her brother. And so began a very lovely and wonderful friendship with a very lovely and wonderful lady! Not only did I get that interview, but she gave me so much more! She donated money to my “cause” so I could afford to do more interviews before old timers passed away. She ardently supported Persistence of Vision. She let me have access to Herbie’s files and copy everything (I was in heaven!). And she completely blew me away when she gave my wife and I an original Herb Ryman painting as a wedding present. That was Lucille, always giving. She was also very passionate about her brother and his legacy, and to honor that legacy, she started the Ryman-Carroll Foundation to carry on Herbie’s “artistic legacy and perpetuate his belief that to be a fine artist, you’ve got to learn the fundamentals of drawing early in life.” (For more information go to: Ryman-Carroll Foundation)

In 1993 she told me a beautiful story that Herbie had told her back before Disneyland had become a reality. She believed that the story was not known, as her brother felt it was private and never shared it, except with her and a few close friends. I was touched by the account, which added an important missing detail to already established Disney lore. I asked her if it would be possible for me to publish it in Persistence of Vision. She responded enthusiastically that she would like that, and thought her brother would too. That was Lucille! So thanks to this wonderful lady who was always giving, I would like to present the story once again in honor of her and Herbie (with a nod to Ken).

The now famous story of how Walt chose Herb Ryman to do the original Disneyland concept has become immortalized in the annals of Disney History. How Walt and Herbie spent the entire weekend working on the idea and art, so that on Monday morning Roy could take it to New York to try and get financing. Yet, in all the accounts, which have collectively been taken from Herb Ryman’s recollections, one small detail was deliberately never told by Herbie. The tears! A few fortunate friends and family knew, readers of Persistence of Vision knew, and now visitors here at the Institute will also know.

Lucille reminisced with me one day about her brother’s experience with Walt that eventful day in September of 1953. “Herbie wasn’t going to do it; he wanted to have time to think about it. He felt that it would just embarrass himself and Walt too. What if it was turned down because the sketch was terrible?”

“Walt walked over to the corner, with his back towards me,” Carroll remembers her brother telling her. “He paused, and then he turned around. There were tears in his eyes, ‘This is my dream,’ Walt said.”

“It was at that point, that my brother decided he would do it,” she recounted. “It shows the sensitivity of Walt and it shows the power he had over people. People worshipped him.” Moreover, as Herbie would later recount many times, it showed how truly important Disneyland was to Walt and that Walt’s vision involved Herbie. But, perhaps, without the tears, it might have never happened. A world without Disneyland would be like a world without Herb Ryman, Lucille Ryman-Carroll, and Ken Anderson … a bit sadder! May we never forget the wonderful people that helped to make Walt’s Dreams Come True!

To learn more about Lucille Ryman Carroll and her own Hollywood legacy (Ken told me that during the 1940s and 1950s she was probably one of the most powerful women in Hollywood) go to: Lucille Ryman Carroll.